And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, Nephi, saying: Thou hast beheld that if the Gentiles repent it shall be well with them; and thou also knowest concerning the covenants of the Lord unto the house of Israel; and thou also hast heard that whoso repenteth not must perish.
Therefore, wo be unto the Gentiles if it so be that they harden their hearts against the Lamb of God.
—1 Nephi 14:5-6
Before we continue with Blood Moon 4, it’s important to clear up some confusion about the Gentiles. So we'll take this brief detour to discuss the topic.
There are two good reasons we must get clear about the Gentiles:
First, the interplay between the Gentiles and the House of Israel is a critical component of the Father’s work in our day, and in the events that are now upon us. A correct understanding is vital if we hope to be rescued from what is coming.
Second, most Mormon people consider themselves part of the House of Israel and therefore fail to understand the dire predicament confronting us all.
So let’s start by reviewing a couple of definitions. When we speak of the “House” of “Israel” the word “house” actually refers to a family. But this family is more than just people related by bloodlines. It also entails a covenant relationship with other members of the family.
And “Israel” doesn’t refer to a country or a posterity, but rather to a man. That man was originally named Jacob, but he received a new name when he entered into the covenant that made him part of God’s family. Like his father, Isaac, and his grandfather, Abraham, he covenanted personally with God.
So…Israel (the man) received a covenant from God, making him (Israel) a part of God’s family. Therefore, anyone who enters Israel’s family by the same covenant, becomes part of God’s family.
In other words, the “House of Israel” is really the family of God. By necessity, all members of that family are in a covenant relationship with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (who was renamed Israel,) as well as with God.
But I’m a member of the House of Israel...aren’t I?
The idea that LDS people are automatically part of the House of Israel comes from various sources, but its origins are not well understood. Neither can most Mormons explain exactly how, or when, they received a covenant from God that made them part of Israel’s family. But because every LDS patriarchal blessing declares a “lineage,” tying the recipient to one of the twelve sons, or “tribes” of Israel, we tend to assume it’s a done deal, rather than a conditional possibility.
Various claims get advanced—that it happens at baptism, at confirmation, in the temple, or upon priesthood ordination. Past church leaders have taught these ideas, though there’s little scriptural basis for these claims. In fact, those who advance such claims show no understanding of the covenant in question.
So let’s turn to scripture, the Book of Mormon in particular, and take a look at how things are laid out there for our benefit. The basic understanding and definitions used throughout the book were set by the book’s first writer, Nephi, who divides people into three groups:
My People: (AKA my brethren, the remnant of my people, my seed, etc.). This generally refers to Lehi’s descendants, clear down until today. He sometimes also uses it to refer to the House of Israel in general, because he was a literal blood descendent of Jacob, or Israel. (2 Ne. 33:7, 2 Ne. 25:3-4, 1 Ne. 15:5, and many, many others.)
The Jews: (2 Ne 33:8, 2 Ne 25:1-2, and many others.) By this, he primarily means the people at Jerusalem, or “those from whence I came.”
The Gentiles: 1 Nephi 13 gives a lot of information about those Nephi viewed as the “Gentiles.” Here is some of what he says about them (with verses in parentheses):
- They are the source of the great and abominable church (4)
- They were separated from Nephi’s descendants by “many waters” (10)
- The Gentiles went forth out of captivity and crossed the waters to come to the land of promise (13-14)
- The Gentiles scattered and smote the remnants of Nephi’s seed, but did not utterly destroy them (14, 30)
- The Gentiles were prosperous, white, fair and beautiful (15)
- They humbled themselves on the land of promise (16)
- They were delivered by the power of God from all other nations (19)
- They had the Bible, though it was in a very corrupt state and actually prevented salvation and became a stumbling block to them (24-29)
In short, the “Gentiles” refers to the primarily white, European immigrants who came to America and displaced the Native Americans. That is how Nephi sees you, me, and the vast majority of LDS people on this continent. To him, we’re certainly not “Jews,” nor are we “My People” because we are not part of his family, nor part of the posterity of Jacob (Israel). Racially, ethnically, and by bloodlines, Nephi identifies us as Gentiles. Period.
And he doesn’t have high hopes for us, either.
I also have charity for the Gentiles. But behold, for none of these can I hope except they shall be reconciled unto Christ, and enter into the narrow gate, and walk in the strait path which leads to life, and continue in the path until the end of the day of probation. (2 Nephi 33:9)
In 1 Ne. 13:34-35, the Lord tells us that the Book of Mormon and much of the Gospel would come forth to the Gentiles in the last days:
“Behold, saith the Lamb of God, after I have visited the remnant of the house of Israel—and this remnant of whom I speak is the seed of thy father—wherefore, after I have visited them in judgment, and smitten them by the hand of the Gentiles, and after the Gentiles do stumble exceedingly, because of the most plain and precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb which have been kept back by that abominable church, which is the mother of harlots, saith the Lamb—
I will be merciful unto the Gentiles in that day, insomuch that I will bring forth unto them, in mine own power, much of my gospel, which shall be plain and precious, saith the Lamb.
For, behold, saith the Lamb: I will manifest myself unto thy seed, that they shall write many things which I shall minister unto them, which shall be plain and precious; and after thy seed shall be destroyed, and dwindle in unbelief, and also the seed of thy brethren, behold, these things shall be hid up, to come forth unto the Gentiles, by the gift and power of the Lamb.” (1 Nephi 13:34-35)
This is clearly referring to us, the Latter-day Saints. The restoration of the plain and precious things certainly didn’t come to the Catholics or Protestants. The “hidden up” Book of Mormon didn’t come to other churches. WE are the Gentiles to whom it came.
Joseph Smith also identified the Latter-day Saints with the Gentiles in his dedicatory prayer of the Kirtland temple, which alone ought to be enough to convince us or our scriptural identity:
“Now these words, O Lord, we have spoken before thee, concerning the revelations and commandments which thou hast given unto us, who are identified with the Gentiles.” (D&C 109:60)
OK, so Nephi views the white Europeans and their descendants as Gentiles, including those of us to whom the restoration has come.
But somewhere along the way, we picked up the mistaken notion that we are not, in fact, Gentiles, but part of the House of Israel. This is a comfortable thing to believe because it then means all of the bad stuff prophesied about the Gentiles doesn’t apply to us. It applies to all those “other” churches, but not to us.
The trouble is, the scriptures teach the opposite. If we assume WE are of the House if Israel, then who are the Gentiles who brought us the truth? Because according to scripture, the restoration comes first to the Gentiles, who then carry the truth to the remnants of the House of Israel. This prophecy is laid out in many places throughout the Book of Mormon. The short overview is 2 Ne 30:3—
And now, I would prophesy somewhat more concerning the Jews and the Gentiles. For after the book of which I have spoken shall come forth, and be written unto the Gentiles, and sealed up again unto the Lord, there shall be many which shall believe the words which are written; and they shall carry them forth unto the remnant of our seed.
A more detailed example is by the Lord himself in 3 Nephi 16:6-15. It’s too long to quote here, but you should go read it before continuing.
Here are the highlights:
- The Gentiles are blessed in the latter day with the truth and the fulness. (7) Is that the Mormon church, or some other group of Gentiles? Who, exactly was offered the truth and the fulness of the gospel in the Latter days?
- The scattered remnants of Israel are smitten, afflicted, slain, cast out and hated by the Gentiles. (9) In the promised land, this refers to Lehi’s descendants.
- The Gentiles will sin against the gospel and reject the fulness (10) You must first be offered the fulness before you can reject it.
- The Gentiles will become filled with all manner of wickedness (10) This does not bode well for us.
- The Lord will then take the fulness of the gospel from among the Gentiles and return it to the house of Israel (10-11) Do you know the definition of the “Fulness of Christ’s Gospel?” Do you have it?
- Those few Gentiles who will repent will be numbered among the house of Israel (13)
- The house of Israel will tread down the Gentiles (14-15)
- The “remnant of Jacob,” or the house of Israel, will build Zion, assisted by the few Gentiles who repent (3 Nephi 21:22-23)
Did you catch that? It is the Israel’s blood and covenant family that will build the Zion of New Jerusalem. NOT the Gentiles, except those few who will repent and come into the covenant. How much LDS folklore has been devoted to the false idea that we already are Zion? Or that we soon will be? Or that we’re sailing inexorably to heaven, guided by infallible leaders, on a great ship called “Zion?”
No, the scriptures tell a different story entirely. IF we repent and come into the covenant, we may be “numbered among” the remnant of Jacob and assist in building that holy city.
But only IF.
And if we don’t repent and receive the covenant—many, many prophecies promise our destruction as a people, as a society, as a dominant force in the world, so the remnants of Israel’s family can establish Zion without Gentile interference. This Gentile destruction is already underway, and it will overcome nearly all of us unawares, unrepentant, and unprepared. Thank God we have the Book of Mormon warnings, if we will only heed them.
And if we don’t repent and receive the covenant—many, many prophecies promise our destruction as a people, as a society, as a dominant force in the world, so the remnants of Israel’s family can establish Zion without Gentile interference. This Gentile destruction is already underway, and it will overcome nearly all of us unawares, unrepentant, and unprepared. Thank God we have the Book of Mormon warnings, if we will only heed them.
You and I—we’ve been warned.
And therefore, the Gentile warnings and instructions contained in the Book of Mormon are directed to us—which makes sense, really, seeing that Mormons are the only people who read or believe the Book of Mormon. It wouldn’t make any sense at all if all the warnings were directed to people who will never read the book. Therefore we’ll dismiss the nonsensical claims that Mormons are exempt from the Gentile warnings. The safer course—in fact the ONLY safe course—is to heed the warnings and repent.
Of course, none of this is comfortable. The Book of Mormon, written to us and about us, also prophesies our imminent destruction. The time is at hand, the signs have been given, and denial only serves to destroy us.
But, unfortunately, denial is the only comfortable option—and God forbid the gospel should ever make us uncomfortable. Therefore, we go on our merry way, staying in the ship, following blind guides who neither understand nor teach scripture, and comforting ourselves by pretending the prophecies apply to someone else.
No ifs, ands, or buts.
We are the Gentiles. The sooner you come to realize this, the sooner the Book of Mormon will begin to open to you with actual power to bring you to Christ. Literally.
When I teach this to most Mormons, confronted with the unmistakeable declarations of the Book of Mormon, some will concede that yes, we’re identified as Gentiles. And then they’ll follow up with “Yeah, but...” and still give a reason why we are somehow special, immune to the warnings, and not in any danger, just so long as we follow the right man and stay in the ship.
Don’t “Yeah, but...” this. Kiss your “buts” goodbye.
Pretending you’re something that you’re clearly not, may be comforting for a moment, but will not protect you from what lies ahead. Don't take comfort in wishful thinking.
There is a Covenant
I know that there is a lot of information here. The topic of Gentiles and Remnants is repeated incessantly throughout the Book of Mormon. God intends to keep the covenant he made with Israel concerning his posterity. The Gentiles have no such promise. Therefore, our only hope is to repent and receive the covenant offered to us.
What covenant is that?
Well, the one taught in the Book of Mormon. The one by which we may become children of God—literally part of His family. The covenant that binds the hearts of the children to the fathers in heaven. (Which fathers are in heaven? Surely not our unbaptized dead.) The covenant that must be in place to prevent the whole earth from being smitten with a curse. (JSH 1:38-39, D&C 128:18) The covenant the Lord has plainly stated we have neglected and therefore bear his condemnation still today. (D&C 84:57) The covenant Moroni promised at the very beginning of the restoration (D&C 2).
If you don’t know what that covenant is; if you don’t understand what it entails; if you have not entered into it and heard the words of Psalms 2:7 declared to you by God, (see also Mosiah 5:7), you may be assured you are yet numbered among the Gentiles, regardless of your blood lines.
These things are incredibly important. Our eternal destiny is in peril unless we take the Book of Mormon seriously and search for understanding of these things. We need to realize who we are and what we are offered before it is everlastingly too late.
The Book of Mormon is like a brand new book when you read what it actually says.
Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.
—3 Nephi 21:11
It's easy to determine if you are an Israelite or Gentile. All of the 12 sons of Jacob were fair skinned and blue eyed. Thus, if you are fair skinned and blue eyed, then you are a literal / physical descendant of Israel. Those who have gentile blood are also white, but have brown eyes. This is because one of their Israelite ancestors married a person from the heathen nations. It's really that simple.
ReplyDeleteSome of the patriarchal blessings given today in the church are ridiculous. Some patriarchs go as far as claiming black people are of the tribe of Ephraim. This is what happens when the Church becomes corrupt and is no longer in favor with the Lord. This is when "thus saith the Lord" revelation ceases to come forth.
Fortunately there is a cleanse coming.
Given the degree of intermixing of the races during the diaspora, the blood of Jacob has spread far and wide. I doubt it's quite so simple as eye color at this point.
DeleteHowever, the larger issue is that blood doesn't matter at all. You could have the blood of Jacob, and still be considered a Gentile in prophecy.
"And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham." (Matthew 3:9)
What matters is the covenant. Until we come into God's family, we have no promise.
So if you rise up, and recieve that covenant with God and enter his family, you are considered a "repentant gentile" that will assist the house of Israel in establishing zion? I'm just trying to clarify here because this has been something I've been pondering since thanksgiving when in discussion with my grandmother and parents, I found out that I have Indian ancestory from two different tribes from both my mother and my father. So I wonder if that is a remnant of Nephi's people who need to hear this message from the Gentiles and receive the message of the fulness in order to also rise up and make a covenant with God. But if that were the case, you're saying bloodline doesn't matter? Or are you saying bloodline doesn't matter until you've received the covenant with God and then he'll tell you or make you understand who you are and how you've fulfilled prophesy? As for now, the message is we have to repent and turn to God, no matter what your lineage?
DeleteT
Without getting into too many nuances, yes, I believe bloodline is far less relevant than repentance and turning to the Lord. All who repent and receive the covenant will be counted with the House of Israel. And all who don't will not.
DeleteI wouldn't be too sure about the bloodline not counting. It does matter... Unless you want to be a rogue wanderer in Zion.
Delete"You may think an isolated, faithful individual can have Zion, and they may well receive the Lord and associate with the general assembly and Church of the Firstborn, however, Zion will not be a solitary individual. Nor will the required covenant be established for only an isolated individual. "
"...as a living mortal you can have an association with the General Assembly and Church of the Firstborn (a priestly reference that requires you to understand about the “rights of the fathers”) here, now. If you do this you become one of those solitary souls who live as a stranger and sojourner on earth. Your association is with heaven, not with earth. But that does not fulfill the prophecies and covenants regarding Zion. You can have the same kind of life but if it is your life alone if you live without bringing others with you."
You might want to read 2 Nephi 14:1, D&C 85:7, D&C 107:40, D&C 113:3-6 and and ponder their significance with the topic at hand. Also, pray for an invitation to be sent.
Yes anonymous, I agree with this.
DeleteThe seed is very important.
Abraham 2:11 states it clearly that the "seed" is the priesthood after the order of the son.
Also Alma 13 suggests that a covenant is made in the pre-mortal life with the Father and Christ and those making this pre-mortal covenant come down in bodies in the literal blood of the Lord's covenant seed, Israel. Gentiles and Canaanites did not make this same covenant.
I have never read anything in scripture, or church history for that matter, which mentions anything about literal descendants of Abraham being blue-eyed. Given what we know of middle eastern people, including native Americans, that seems highly unlikely. T
DeleteAlbeit fair skinned, they more than likely had dark hair and dark eyes. However, given the fact that Israelites were eventually scattered among all nations, they could literally look like anyone today. I am always surprised at the lack of understanding so many members of the church seem to have concerning this subject and how so few of them actually know the difference between being an Israelite of literal descent versus being one through spiritual adoption. I believe this is primarily due to their lack of familiarity with the scriptures. In the end, the only ones who will be counted among the house of Israel are those who partake in the Abrahamic covenant, but make no mistake, the restoration of Israel in the latter days spoken throughout scripture, pertains to the restoration of the literal seed.
I have to wonder what exactly the prophets meant by "great and abominable church". I realize now that the Lord's definition of His "church" is the "body of Christ".
ReplyDeleteThe great and abominable church in Christ's eyes is likely not an institution either, but likely a body of something else. My first thoughts are that it's modern Christianity, including post-Smith-bros. mormonism. But our scriptures don't spell it out as clearly as the church of Christ, so we're mostly left with interpreting from the few clues we have, the biggest of which may be that it comes specifically from the gentiles.
At least we've publicly disavowed Ezra Taft Benson's fever dream from the 1960s that the great whore of all the earth is the Catholic Church.
DeleteA terrific synopsis of the matter, Adrian. I'd love to figure out a way to explore this fundamental blind spot in the LDS worldview with my Gospel Doctrine class. Imagine the urgency we might feel to study and repent and then repent some more were we to take off our blinders and let the spirit guide us. The time draws short. It is worth the effort to make the attempt.
ReplyDeleteHi Adrian, my wife and I just read Isaiah chapter 56 and it was especially heartwarming and relevant to this post, concerning the children of strangers (Gentiles) and those who wake-up and consider themselves slaves and bondservants (what I think eunuchs poetically alludes to). And, then in the last few verses it puts a dig in against the lazy, greedy dogs who think they are the shepherds, but will be devoured by the beasts and then the Lord holds a feast fitting for the celebration of their downfall with strong wine and enjoys himself with the humble.
ReplyDeleteBeautiful and informative post, as usual. I LOVE reading your blog. It enlightens my mind and I learn so much and think about things that feel vital, but that I'd never considered before.
ReplyDeleteYou Keep Using That Word (Gentiles), I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means - Mandy Patinkin, The Princess Bride.
ReplyDeleteYou say the "Gentiles" are the Church, yet that doesn't agree with 3 Nephi 16:8, "for notwithstanding they have come forth upon the face of this land, and have scattered my people who are of the house of Israel". I don't think that the "Church" has done any scattering, but I do believe the Gentiles have. Once you make and keep that covenant with the Lord (through baptism and more) and become part of his kingdom you are no longer a Gentile but are part of the House of Israel.
And yes, if you no longer try to keep your covenants, then you loose the blessings of being part of the House of Israel.
You are welcome to twist the Scriptures anyway you wish to try to prove your point, but the truth is the Church is the stone cut out of the mountain and it will roll forth and all your criticisms of the Lord's Church will not change the fact that it is the only true and living Church on the face of this earth.
My friend,
DeleteI think you've missed the point of this post. If you're going to limit your definition "Gentiles" only to those who came here and scattered Nephi's people, then since that all happened generations ago, there are no Gentiles today.
I made it clear how Nephi defines Gentiles, and that definition includes the white Europeans who came here, as well as their descendants. As such, the LDS people are included, particularly given the language about the fulness of the gospel being offered to the Gentiles. And 3 Nephi 16:8 supports that definition. I have not twisted scriptures in the least, but have taken them at their plain meaning.
I realize this stuff is hard to confront. I realize we've told ourselves stories for generations about how we're part of the House if Israel, recipients of the covenant, and only need to "try to keep our covenants" to avoid losing these blessings. You've repeated the stories above, stating that "baptism and more" make and keep the covenant with the Lord that makes us part of the House of Israel. I invite you to search the scriptures and find out if these ideas are supported there.
Have courage, my friend, and find out for yourself if scripture supports your hope for eternal life. If not, I hope you'll reconsider believing what the scriptures do say.
Yes I guess we do see what we want to see. You see a fallen Church, I see a vibrant community of Saints and Sinners many of which are trying to be like Christ. You see the loss of Prophets since Joseph Smith, I see men and women who aren’t perfect, but the Lord is still willing to work with them and guide them. We all see what we want to see. We read the same scriptures and come to different conclusions. I have no idea what I could say to you to see what I know to be true, and I’m sure you’re probably thinking the same thing about me.
DeleteI probably shouldn’t have come into this conversation because I’m not going to persuade you and you aren’t going to persuade me. I am from the tribe of Ephraim and of the Covenant and I’m a Gentile. I’m all three. May the Lord bless you to see that his kingdom didn’t fail in 1844.
It was 4 years ago when I first became aware that “We” members of the Church are not considered “His” people in the traditional way that members think we are. It took a long time for me to wrap my head around this truth.
ReplyDeleteOnce I chose to allow myself to believe that it was a possibility, the scriptures opened up in ways they had not done so before, especially 3rd Nephi. I wondered why I had not seen it before when it was so clear.
We, as Church members, cannot afford to misunderstand this information. It is so vital to our personal salvation. I cannot think of a more powerful explanation of the condition of the Church and members today than Isaiah 28. http://www.isaiahexplained.com/28#commentary
As you said, Joseph made it very clear in D&C 109:60 that members of the Church are numbered with the gentiles. Another clue is the first words of D&C 1. “Hearken, YE people of my church, saith the voice of him who dwells on high.” Notice he does not say O MY people of the Church. Other scriptures have also made it very clear that we are not “HIS” people in the context you have explained in your commentary. We are “Ye People or “the” people. We will not become “His” unless we take the warnings solemnly, repent and take the Book of Mormon seriously and believe the literal interpretation of its words. Oh, how we have “dwindled in unbelief.”
I think the general feeling is we don’t have anything to repent of as a body of saints. As Isaiah states, we are intoxicated with self-deception and will be “trodden underfoot” unless we come to understand who we really are and do something to change our personal course. All is not well in Zion in more ways than one.
We also must get over a common belief that some how, because we are members of the faith, we are going to be protected in some way when things really fall apart. Nothing could be further from the truth. D&C 112:24-28 makes it very clear. “The whirlwind of the earth will begin in His House and shall go forth.”
Protection and salvation is NOT a group promise but a singular one. Even though I surround myself with “Like Minded” people, my spiritual journey is a solitary one.
Thank for the time you have put into this post. It was wonderful to find so much information brought together in one commentary. I find it to be spot on.
Brother Adrian, your commentary is excellent on the subject of who the "Gentiles" of the Book of Mormon really are. A Latter Day Saint from Cardston Alberta posted December 4, 2015 on his blog: http://woodyoubelieveit.blogspot.com a fitting commentary on the same subject by a former LDS GA, H. Verlan Anderson. It supports everything you've said. Anyone having trouble with this subject would benefit from reading both articles.
ReplyDeleteThank you.
Can you explain D&C 128:18 a little bit more? We in the church have taken this to mean that we need to do baptisms for all people, to weld the links that create an entire family of God. But I never noticed this part before; "Neither can they nor we be made perfect without those who have died in the gospel also". So am correct in thinking that Joseph was talking about baptisms for our kindred dead that in turn will link us both living and dead, back to the fathers of the dispensations? Those who have actually "died in the gospel"?
ReplyDeleteYes, I believe you are correct. When we have made a connection to our righteous fathers by covenant, then we will be in a position to do something to assist our ancestors who died without the gospel.
DeleteUltimately, the welding links will link back through Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham, who is the father of the faithful. That is the connection we lack, as yet, and the connection that Moroni announced would be restored by the instrumentality of Elijah. Obviously, there's a lot more to this story, but I think you are interpreting the verse correctly.
Adrian,
ReplyDeletePlease show us by scriptural citation exactly where we are told that the Gentiles must do anything besides to "repent" and to have charity for the House of Israel (be their nursing fathers and mothers). Where exactly, in the plainness of the words of the Book of Mormon (the method Nephi likes to use to teach) are we told that we Gentiles must have a welding link made, as you assert, to the "fathers."
That language comes from D&C 128:18, where Joseph Smith plainly states it.
DeleteIf you’re looking for it in the Book of Mormon, examine 1 Nephi 14:1-2, 3 Nephi 16:11-13, 3 Nephi 30:2 and others. Mormon 7:9-10 also sheds light on what it means to be “numbered among” the people of the covenant. And of course, Jacob 5 lays out the whole plan through the extended allegory of the olive tree, including the grafting in of the Gentiles to the covenant family, followed by the grafting back in of the bloodlines of Jacob.
PART 1
DeleteAdrian,
Thanks for your reply and the references. I guess I should have been more specific about my question. You said, "The covenant that binds the hearts of the children to the fathers in heaven. (Which fathers are in heaven? Surely not our unbaptized dead.)"
But the scriptures you cite do not have any reference to the Gentiles connecting to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, etc. Let me go through them one by one:
D&C 128:18 - "the earth will be smitten with a curse unless there is a welding link of some kind or other between the fathers and the children, upon some subject or other—and behold what is that subject? It is the baptism for the dead. For we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect."
Here it is referring to our kindred dead, for we cannot be made perfect without them. It says nothing about "the fathers in heaven," but talks about welding "dispensations, and keys, and powers and glories." What is also overlooked by most in this section is that baptism for dead is the "summom bonum" of the whole subject! In fact, baptism for the living was instituted to "answer to the likeness" and point us to baptism for the dead. What dead would that be if not our righteous fathers? Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are not "dead." They are sitting on their thrones of glory, so I have a hard time seeing your citation as us linking to them, especially when it is looked at in context.
1 Ne 14:1-2
"And it shall come to pass, that if the Gentiles shall hearken unto the Lamb of God in that day that he shall manifest himself unto them...they shall be numbered among the seed of thy father; yea, they shall be numbered among the house of Israel..."
Where are the "fathers in heaven" mentioned here? This only tells us how the Gentiles get to be numbered among Israel. It is by hearkening unto the Lamb of God and hardening not their hearts. In other scriptures we see that it is by repenting, being baptized in the name of Christ, and coming to know His true points of doctrine. I might also add having charity for the House of Israel (but not coveting their promises).
Mormon 7:9-10 is talking to the House of Israel, not to the Gentiles. But even still, the Lord is tell them that they should be be baptized with water and fire, not to connect to Abr, Is and Jac.
PART 2
DeleteI get that you are parroting the talking points of Denver Snuffer, and it may very well be that once the Gentiles are numbered among Israel that there is a connection made to their fathers, the prophets. But I think Denver and those who push the connection to the fathers in heaven so much are putting the cart before the horse. As Gentiles, we should be looking at the promises made to us (which apparently are "great"). We should not expect to have Jesus manifest Himself to us (at this point) other than through the power of the Holy Ghost. This is so that we act in our agency to bring unto Him "the fountain of all righteousness."
I'm sure there will be a connection to the prophets once the Gentiles are numbered among Israel. But we cannot forget some important steps before that happens:
* The Gentiles must repent. This, I believe is why D&C 128 is so important. The Gentiles include our kindred fathers, and we can repent in their behalf for their follies and abominations (See D&C 98:47-48).
* The Gentiles must have charity for not only our suffering fathers in their captive state (D&C 128:22), but for confounded Israel. Our commission is to "nurse" them and serve them. I don't hear anyone talking about desires to rescue Israel, only to be numbered among them and get their promises.
* There will be books carried by the Gentiles to Israel. First and foremost will be the Book of the Lamb in its pure state. The words of Moroni describing the Lord's visit to Bountiful will also come from the Gentiles to the Remnant of Lehi's seed.
Why do set our sights on the end game when there is so much to be played before we reach that time? The Gentiles have a lot of work to do before they can link themselves to Israel and the Fathers. These things must be done in the proper order, or else we will miss the window of opportunity which is before us now.
Hi Anonymous,
DeleteWhen you partially quoted D&C 128:18, you stopped short of the very next sentence, which reads, “Neither can they nor we be made perfect without those who have died in the gospel also; for it is necessary in the ushering in of the dispensation of the fulness of times, which dispensation is now beginning to usher in, that a whole and complete and perfect union, and welding together of dispensations, and keys, and powers, and glories should take place, and be revealed from the days of Adam even to the present time.”
This is a reference to making a connection to the heads of prior dispensations, who died in the gospel, clear back to Adam. They do not need us to be baptized for them, but rather we need to come into the covenant binding us to them, so we can offer our unbaptized dead a connection to them through us.
I could go on and answer point by point in each of the scriptural citations, but I won’t do that. It’s clear that you have a certain set of beliefs, and you’re not interested in changing them. I’m glad to let you have your beliefs and I’ll keep my own. I think we both agree the first order of business is repentance, and lacking that, we have no hope of anything else.
The most important point I do need to make is this:
You state: “We should not expect to have Jesus manifest Himself to us (at this point) other than through the power of the Holy Ghost.” I realize you are likely basing this assertion on 3 Nephi 15:23, which I believe applied only to the groups Christ visited in His meridian of time ministry. If we should not expect a personal visitation from Christ, then we must ignore D&C 93:1, John 14:23, D&C 130:3, 2 Nephi 32:6, and several direct statements by Joseph Smith.
Most importantly, if you don’t believe Christ can minister to you, He surely can’t. The laws that govern all things require faith, and there is no other way. Therefore, if you lack faith because of unbelief, you prevent Him from coming to you. Yet he still stands at the door and knocks.
The caveat I included was that we shouldn't be expecting it "at this time." Can individual Gentiles receive the Second Comforter? I believe so, yes. But observing to obey the things He tells us "in the flesh" takes us out of the realm of faith into knowledge. We can no longer do things based on hope and desire, and therefore become more slothful servants.
DeleteBut there is a purpose in us doing the things as directed through the Holy Ghost. It is so the Gentiles can know the "power" of God.
So you may accuse me of being an unbeliever if you want, but the miracles happen because people act out of faith, without a witness (see Ether 12). I not only hear Him knocking, I see His manifestations through the Holy Ghost. It shows me what needs to be done. Yes, I can seek His presence so that He can tell me directly what to do, but that's not what the Brother of Jared did. He followed a cloud, which we could say was a manifestation of Christ through the Holy Ghost. His faith was so strong that he couldn't be kept from within the veil and it was THEN that he saw the Lord and received the vision of all things.
For another illustration of what I'm talking about, see Alma 13 and Ether 12:10. I would just say, be careful what you ask for. Seeking to hear His voice directly (and not having it be a natural occurrence of strong faith from following the Holy Ghost) will lead you to a place where things you do are no longer "counted as righteousness." But if that's the place you want to be, then by all means, ignore the gift that He has already given the Gentiles and go straight for the Source. You'll be an angel and a servant to the Gods, but I'm sure that is a great thing.
Great Post Adrian
ReplyDeleteI whole heartedly agree to this truth. The 1st shall be last and the last shall be 1st.
One thing I feel that maybe some people out there in many "remnant" movements are not quite grasping is that some of them are actually blood of Israel and not Gentiles as spoken of in holy writ.
Although these "remnant groups" may not be of the Native American Remnant (seed of Lehi) that is needed to begin to build Zion, many of these "remnant" groups most likely are from some of the other tribes in the House of Israel because they are claiming to see and hear the Lord, which would disqualify them as gentiles. Although, they may identify with the Gentiles spoken of in scriptures, as I do even though I am blood of house of Israel and not by adoption.
3 Nephi 15:23
23 And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice—that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost.
SO anyone claiming to have their calling and election made sure, or claim to receive revelation from the Lord from His voice must be House of Israel (Joseph Smith/Snuffer, etc)
I believe you are right on, but the House of Israel must mean something aside from a bloodline, I believe this bloodline means the holy high Priesthood after the order of the son.
Abraham, grand-father of Israel.
Abraham 2:11
11 And I will abless them that bless thee, and bcurse them that curse thee; and in thee (that is, in thy Priesthood) and in thy cseed (that is, thy Priesthood), for I give unto thee a promise that this dright shall continue in thee, and in thy seed after thee (that is to say, the literal seed, or the seed of the body)
Keep the light shining and I pray that the hidden works of darkness in the LDS and all strongholds of power are brought to light and made more known so we can work more affectively to gather the seed of Lehi and build Zion.
Wonderful writing. What happens to a gentile who does not make this covenant in this lifetime, or if they fail to be sealed to the fathers?
ReplyDeleteYea, I always figured that the gentiles encompassed both members and non-member European immigrant populations of North America. And even though all of the scriptures are important, the Book of Mormon stands in a place of primacy, both from what Joseph Smith said about it being the most correct book, and also what the Holy Ghost has told me about it.
ReplyDeleteOn another note; as I was looking at links to various blogs and websites of people exed for being too "Mormon", (Rock's, Will Carter's, Denver's, the 77truth guy, this one, etc.) it occurred to me that one of the temptations or evils of contention (whether by "TBM's" defending the faith, "Remnants" defending their understanding of problems in the institutional church, atheists/agnostics defending their own perceptions, or any other kind or source of contention) is it appeals to our pride.
Is it too late for the Gentiles to repent?
ReplyDelete3 Nephi 16
13 But if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel.
14 And I will not suffer my people, who are of the house of Israel, to go through among them, and tread them down, saith the Father.
It's not too late for individual Gentiles to repent and turn to the Lord. But the opportunity for widespread, institutional repentance has passed.
DeleteOf course, it's always about individuals anyway, so my hope is that many will awaken, arise, repent, and be numbered with the House of Israel.
Can someone please help me with what I commented about above,
ReplyDeleteWhat happens to a gentile if they fail to make a covenant in this round of creation, they do not become sealed to the fathers...what is their fate? Does it mean they continue in death, does it mean they have to continue in another telestial round of creation and die again not being saved.
If one makes receives a covenant from Christ and is sealed to him, does that mean they do not die but will live and progress, but not in a telestial sphere? Thoughts??
I doubt that any of us are qualified to answer this question. When it comes to continuing rounds of creation, etc., I think pretty much everyone is guessing. The scriptures are intentionally silent on that topic.
DeleteCertainly, no Gentile can hope for a Celestial inheritance without having the covenant in place. See D&C 76:50-70.
Thanks for responding and yes the scripture references are good ones to really think about and take serious as to where we are or where we desire to be.
ReplyDeleteAdrian,
ReplyDeleteIt seems to me that you have got confused. On the one hand you claim that the Gentiles in the BoM must refer to the LDS, because we have received the latter-day restoration, then identify the Gentiles as persecuting Lehi's descendents. So by your logic it is the LDS, and the LDS only, who have disenfranchised, plundered, killed, and rouned up the Lamanites into reservations!
The Gentiles of the BoM are clearly the people of the US who are descended from the Gentile nations and who self-identify as Gentiles. Many of these have a significant amount of literal Isaelite blood in their veins, as Joseph Smith clearly taught.
And Joseph's statement that we are identified with the Gentiles means the exact opposite of what you claim. If he had meant that we are Gentiles he would simply have said that. We are a people who are amongst the Gentiles and are therefore identified with them, but that doesn't mean we are them. I identify with my favourite football team, but that does not mean I am my favourite football team!
Hi Robin Hood,
DeleteAs I stated in the piece, "In short, the “Gentiles” refers to the primarily white, European immigrants who came to America and displaced the Native Americans. That is how Nephi sees you, me, and the vast majority of LDS people on this continent"
In other words, the LDS people certainly aren't the ONLY Gentiles, but are identified as part of the Gentile population by the Book of Mormon. It's like saying the LDS people on this continent are Americans, but they aren't the only Americans.
Are we not the descendants of those Gentiles who persecuted and displaced the native Americans?
How does being LDS make one NOT part of that ethnicity?
And though many of us may indeed have Israelite blood, it matters not one whit without a personal covenant with God. As far as the BOM is concerned, we are Gentiles, regardless of what blood mixture we may have.
Joseph's statement that we are "identified with the Gentiles" is very much the opposite of being "numbered with my people who are the of House of Israel." (3 Nephi 21:6, 16:13, 30:2). And it's God who does the numbering, not us. It really doesn't matter who you or I "identify with." God's view is what matters.
I believe the Book of Mormon is clear on this topic and makes no distinction between LDS and non-LDS Gentiles. If you can point me to scripture that says otherwise, please do.
As I said above, "Pretending you’re something that you’re clearly not, may be comforting for a moment, but will not protect you from what lies ahead. Don't take comfort in wishful thinking. "
That's your mistake right there in the first paragraph of your reply. The leap from the Gentiles being the white settlers, to "That is how Nephi sees you, me ......" That leap is not justified when the identity of the Gentiles to whom Nephi is referring is examined in full context. I have studied this extensively and have concluded that those who hold with the view you express have failed to grasp what is clearly being said.
DeleteI understand how this can happen, as I once shared your view. But over time it has become clear that this interpretation is in error.
You ask "are we not descendants... ?"; frankly, no. Most LDS are not Americans and have nothing to do with the white settlers of the new world. Are the majority of LDS ignored by Nephi, Moroni etc? Do you really think that the BoM is simply a provincial book concerned only with the modern US?
If so, then perhaps, as an Englishman, it is not worth me reading it as it doesn't apply to me. Surely that is a logical conclusion.
Proponents of your view often point out Moroni's lament "why have ye polluted the holy church of God" as proof we are in error today etc. When a careful reading clearly reveals he is addressing the Gentiles who have already polluted the church. Remember, he is writing this in approx. 400AD, and he is writing in past tense. He is clearly lamenting the fact that the Gentiles who will over run the land will not have the truth because they lost it. That is why they are building giant lavish sanctuaries and sell the gospel for money (televangelists, mega-churches, prosperity gospel - eg. Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyer, Creflo Dollar etc). He is clearly describing conditions amongst the Gentiles in our day, and not amongst the covenant people. This is so glaringly obvious.
Robin Hood,
DeleteYou are, of course, entitled to think what you want about the Book of Mormon and its audience. I believe Mormon and Moroni were writing to those who would actually read the book, rather than the other Gentiles you mention who have nothing to do with it at all. It's all rather silly to warn your only readers about all the problems they don't have, while speaking to them in the first person.
For good or for ill, the LDS church is overwhelmingly American. It was founded in America, and the majority of active members are American. Yes, I realize there are more non-American members of record than there are American members of record, but those numbers include parts of the world where activity rates hover in the single digits.
Also, wherever the LDS church goes, it exports American values, culture, management techniques, even phrases.
I'm not saying it should be this way, nor am I diminishing members from other countries. I'm just reporting current facts and practices. The LDS church is primarily a Gentile church that sprang from a Gentile nation.
As an Englishman, you most certainly share much common ancestry with Americans. Or rather, I should say, Americans herald from the same Gentile sources you likely do. I suspect Nephi would include you among those he identifies as Gentiles (or “mother Gentiles” to American Gentiles.)
In chapter 8, Moroni speaks also in the present tense and future tense, and he speaks about the time his record comes forth and what comes thereafter. Of course all this makes sense when you consider his statement that "Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing."
If you believe you already have the covenant you need, and that God numbers you with the House of Israel, then there's no point in troubling yourself with my writings. Instead you should focus on understanding how and when you received this covenant, and what you must do to fulfill it. My advice would be to consider very carefully though. The stakes are very high if you’re wrong.
Robin Hood, may God bless us both with eyes to see, ears to hear, and hearts to receive His word.
This all is such a paradigm shift for so many people. I'm encouraged that some of those that disagree with Adrian's diagnosis are at least understanding the argument to some degree. They may state that they believe these warnings are to a wider audience (as I also used to think), and that the repentant Gentiles were also among that wider audience (presumably LDS). But these things can't be decided in a vacuum. Too many of the warnings Moroni and Nephi gives about the condition of the Gentiles today fit the LDS populace, such as neglecting the poor to build fine sanctuaries, implicitly denying miracles and gifts of the Spirit (while explicitly endorsing them--which seems ever the worse), saying that "all is well," while the devil carefully leads them to hell. We fit too many of the descriptors of the so-called unrepentant Gentiles. I came to that conclusion almost ten years ago, but believed our leaders were desperately trying to get us to change.
DeleteMoroni's first charge is to study thew words of Isaiah. So when you go there, you see that Isaiah is lamenting in his curious typological fashion concerning the state of the church in the last days. Statement such as the "whole head is sick," or Moroni stating that "they have all gone astray," take on additional meaning. Isaiah has no love for what he calls "blind guides."
We must seriously concern ourselves that our leaders are not as chosen as they say they are. We must compare them with past professed prophets and if they do not measure up in every characteristic, such as prophesying, performing miracles, tongues, and other spiritual gifts, which are shed forth as evidence of their divine calling, then we have a good premise to reject at least some of their credentials. They may qualify as shepherds, but not as prophets, seers, or revelators.
Once we have scriptural permission to judge righteously those that lead us, in reality it simultaneously releases us to be more questioning of our Lord, drawing closer to him for added discernment. That Lord, as I have found, is more than willing to be your guide if you will let him. Men can be messengers of Him, but let's stop elevating them more than this. I believe this is what Nephi calls the stumbling block of the Gentiles in 1 Nephi 14.